Headshot penalty?

Diskussionen um das Regelwerk
Benutzeravatar
SkiF
Beiträge: 58
Registriert: Mo 10. Sep 2018, 08:18
Stadt: Togliatti
Team: Russian Team
Position: all-around
Wohnort: Togliatti, Russia
Kontaktdaten:

Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von SkiF » Di 20. Nov 2018, 09:07

Australian rules has headshot penalty. German - doesn't. How do you handle with situations when players hit other players' head very often?
My travel blog: skif.lince.ru

>>> Jugger in Russia <<<

Benutzeravatar
Ein Uhu
Beiträge: 1450
Registriert: Mo 17. Nov 2008, 17:02
Stadt: The Home of rrriktig Metal
Team: Falco jugger/JF Akzipiter n.n.
Position: Schild. Admin Wiki & Int. Juggerblog
Kontaktdaten:

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von Ein Uhu » Di 20. Nov 2018, 09:22

This would violate the basic rule of sportive behaviour in Jugger, so it doesn't really have to be regulated separately (in my opinion).

To be precise: The headshot lover would have a little talk with the referees and/or the opposing team. If required with that player's team as well ...
This usually does magic.
And if not, they probably would receive a ban.

This has always worked quite fine up to my knowledge. If we start trying to soccer-foul people we could as well ... well, play soccer instead. Referee doesn't look? Nice, WHAM! broken leg. Whoa, that one touched me? Well, I'll roll over the floor dramatically whining and crying to get everyone's attention. Very manly behaviour in the oh-so-manly sports of soccer btw.

Although, with the tendency to regulate penalties, a penalty might actually get written down (I'd say a "rule of thumb" would be absolutely enough. More rules just add bulk and take away personal responsibility).
Foren–Moderator | Huderte 2007-2012 das Juggerregelwerk
Uhus Jugger-Videotutorials | -Archiv: Internationale Juggerregelwerke | Salute of the Jugger-Filmanalyse

Benutzeravatar
Max V.
Beiträge: 150
Registriert: Fr 1. Mai 2015, 09:40
Stadt: Paderborn
Team: Peters Pawns
Position: Bauer

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von Max V. » Di 20. Nov 2018, 09:50

Most of the time the headshot itself is the penalty, because the shooter will get hit. Sure this doesn't happen everytime and strong hits at the head will stagger the opponent. But this will encourage players enough to avoid hitting the opponents head.
I can't remember any instance at a tournament where recurring headshots were a problem. But my memory is a little hazy due to a lot of hits on my head.
"[...] und präsentierte sich ihm mit einem Blick über die Schulter, den man wohl als schalkhaft erwartungsvoll bezeichnen musste."

Felix2.0
Beiträge: 91
Registriert: Mi 2. Mär 2016, 19:12
Stadt: Halle
Team: Anima Equorum
Position: Langpompfe, Läufer, Stab, Trainer

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von Felix2.0 » Di 20. Nov 2018, 13:28

+1 Max
its just an insane advantage if the player gets hit at the head, normaly as his opponent i lose the fight :(

Benutzeravatar
SkiF
Beiträge: 58
Registriert: Mo 10. Sep 2018, 08:18
Stadt: Togliatti
Team: Russian Team
Position: all-around
Wohnort: Togliatti, Russia
Kontaktdaten:

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von SkiF » Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:04

By our experience (not as big as your, though), headshot fine a good way to avoid players' injures and even concussion.
Because, if player know, when he hit opponent's head then he will sit and count 8 stones, then he control his hands twice as careful.

Moreover, each headshot disorientates players for some seconds (as opposed hitting into the hand). And if it wasn't a double (and mostly it is not), so person, who hit, have an advantage.

Makes sense? Or my English's so weird? :oops:
My travel blog: skif.lince.ru

>>> Jugger in Russia <<<

Benutzeravatar
Max V.
Beiträge: 150
Registriert: Fr 1. Mai 2015, 09:40
Stadt: Paderborn
Team: Peters Pawns
Position: Bauer

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von Max V. » Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:38

SkiF hat geschrieben:
Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:04
By our experience (not as big as your, though), headshot fine a good way to avoid players' injures and even concussion.
Because, if player know, [...]
People will do stupid things regardles the penalty. Moreover it would be even encourage Headshots, because I will automaticly win the duel, if iI let myself get hit at the head.
SkiF hat geschrieben:
Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:04
Moreover, each headshot disorientates players for some seconds
Then someone uses way to much force if every headshot stuns you. As a coach I try to teach people techniques that made headshots unlikley and not as forceful.
Zuletzt geändert von Max V. am Mi 21. Nov 2018, 09:48, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
"[...] und präsentierte sich ihm mit einem Blick über die Schulter, den man wohl als schalkhaft erwartungsvoll bezeichnen musste."

Benutzeravatar
SkiF
Beiträge: 58
Registriert: Mo 10. Sep 2018, 08:18
Stadt: Togliatti
Team: Russian Team
Position: all-around
Wohnort: Togliatti, Russia
Kontaktdaten:

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von SkiF » Mi 21. Nov 2018, 06:15

Max V. hat geschrieben:
Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:38
Then someone uses way to much force if every headshot stuns you. As a couch I try to teach people techniques that made headshots unlikley and not as forceful.
I wouldn't say so, it's just human's physiology. Even if you get hit with soft material, you close your eyes or touch your head with hand automatically.

But I partially agree with you. Most headshots happened because of opponent (when he/she try to avoid hit, sit down, dodge or so on), not a pompfer. So it's may be not so fair to punish pompfer. In this way headshot penalty is kind of excuse.
My travel blog: skif.lince.ru

>>> Jugger in Russia <<<

Benutzeravatar
Max V.
Beiträge: 150
Registriert: Fr 1. Mai 2015, 09:40
Stadt: Paderborn
Team: Peters Pawns
Position: Bauer

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von Max V. » Mi 21. Nov 2018, 09:54

Sometimes headshots just happened because of an opponents movement. However most of the times a headshot happens, because your attack made it possible. For example if you strike from above it is more likely to hit the head (first) than if you use a "uppercut". So use your training to find ways of attack that are efficient. These will turn out to be safe as well.
"[...] und präsentierte sich ihm mit einem Blick über die Schulter, den man wohl als schalkhaft erwartungsvoll bezeichnen musste."

Benutzeravatar
{Peter}
Beiträge: 765
Registriert: Mi 3. Aug 2011, 11:14
Stadt: Oerlinghausen
Team: ehem. {} | jetzt: Peters Pawns
Position: Qwik -> Kette

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von {Peter} » Mi 21. Nov 2018, 11:43

SkiF hat geschrieben:
Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:04
Moreover, each headshot disorientates players for some seconds (as opposed hitting into the hand). And if it wasn't a double (and mostly it is not), so person, who hit, have an advantage.
From my experience this is a problem for beginners.
SkiF hat geschrieben:
Di 20. Nov 2018, 14:04
By our experience (not as big as your, though), headshot fine a good way to avoid players' injures and even concussion.
Because, if player know, when he hit opponent's head then he will sit and count 8 stones, then he control his hands twice as careful.
The rule would bring more harm then good.
In germany we already have "problems" about the topic called "aktiver Kopfblock", means: when you use your head (actively) to block a hit.
Thats the hardcoded interpretation and is problematic when done by runners.
A softer interpretations leads to a different behaviour of a Pompfer: es example think about a long pompfen player who is just "jumping"/charging frontally into you, with his LP and his head infront, so it is more likely that a block will hit the head first.
That behaviour is already bad play (as you accept to get hit on the head by exposing your head - in reallife fighting sports noone would expose his head like that...) but IF i also dont need to hit my opponent and get him to 8 stones by forcing into action.. well i would take that, and jugger would be a different sport.

[Typical problems: shieldplayers playing style, charging pompfer, runners blocking with his head, newbees, idiots (= in forms of: "iam hard, i can take that!"-accapting to maybe get hurt for a better cost-benefit-outcome most of the time).]



Also to provide a different (say: german-ish) way of looking at this topic might be:
Rules dont avoid injuries [they might help a bit], but attitude will.

Lets say we have this penalty-rule for touching the head with a pompfe.
Lets also say we have a attitude like in professional soccer (no referee is looking?, then...) or close to that one of the spanish jugger:
Implementing a punishment as a factor of your cost-benefit-analysis for your actions on the field.
Thats to say that IF your analysis is telling you, that it gives you a greater benefit to foul someone, then it harms you or your team you will do so..
resulting in hitting someone intentionally in the face to prevent or secure a point.

No rule will secure you from this. Most (moderate) penaltys wont secure your from this. Attitude will.

In germany we (most..) believe that an action is to be omitted at all (at least trying, and training..) if it is forbidden.
Sure there are always exceptions from this rule, but if you follow the tercios discussion you will see that there is some kind of agreement and collective understanding in our community.


edit:
You will see that german rules will have close to no penaltys until today.
The reason is the mindset mentioned above and also the belief, that every player has a responsibility for his actions and his "play by the rules" in the first place. The responsibility is not by the (correct quality of a) penalty nor by the referee (in first place) like it ~is~ in spanish jugger.
Grün ist das neue Rot.
Mörtel wird das neue Grün.

Was ist eigentlich die Russell Klasse ?

Benutzeravatar
SkiF
Beiträge: 58
Registriert: Mo 10. Sep 2018, 08:18
Stadt: Togliatti
Team: Russian Team
Position: all-around
Wohnort: Togliatti, Russia
Kontaktdaten:

Re: Headshot penalty?

Beitrag von SkiF » Mi 21. Nov 2018, 13:23

{Peter} hat geschrieben:
Mi 21. Nov 2018, 11:43
From my experience this is a problem for beginners.
You're correct, it is. And beginners will always be. As in any other sport. And not only adult beginners. A lot of children. Moreover, quantity of beginners always is much more than quantity of professionals. Of course if yo want to propagate and popularisate this kind of sport, right? First of all, rules should be for beginners, not for respectable community members. Professionals don't need rules so much, because they already know what they need.
My travel blog: skif.lince.ru

>>> Jugger in Russia <<<

Antworten

Zurück zu „Regeln“

Wer ist online?

Mitglieder in diesem Forum: 0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast